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the Greenwich Village Gazette Interview |
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By Ernest Barteldes
If same-sex affection is now more widely-accepted after its long-lived status as a taboo, it is because self-affirming people like Jack Nichols were agitating in the decade before Stonewall, admiring of Dr. Martin Luther King's strategies and eager to use them on behalf of millions of closeted, persecuted gays and lesbians. This "straight" writer is a big admirer of Mr. Nichols, who has been for me an inspiration and an influence. In this interview, Jack talks about his days in New York and the reasons why, after a decade, he left for sunny Florida where he lives today. He talks about his views on gay life in 2001 and tells about the fierce campaign he's recently been waging against Dubya, who, he believes as many of us do, "stole the election." Ernest Barteldes: Gay life in the U.S. has gone from radical to mainstream and has now reached a point where some are actually missing the underground activism in which you participated. How do you feel about that?
The gay movement had timid members in those days who were extremely conservative. They opposed picketing, convinced it would cause us trouble. They weren't even sure that we should take a stand against the psychiatrists who, before the mid-1970s, taught that homosexuality was a disease or a neurosis. What we learned from the Black movement was that we must go over the heads of those conservative masses for whom we spoke and reach people in power--in the government, the courts, the American Psychiatric Associations. Gay movement conservatives in those days foolishly called for more research, more social service outlets to help people in trouble. Fine, but we who were militants or so-called radicals, pointed out that the research of those times was hopelessly faulty and that we could minister to endless lines of gay men and women suffering the results of prejudice, but that unless we changed the viewpoints of those in power, the lines of our disenfranchised community would continue to be lengthy. Because there are so many neo-conservatives, gay and straight, running around loose today--even in Manhattan--I continue to consider myself a radical by comparison. Walt Whitman, America's greatest poet, expressed precisely how I feel in "Song of the Open Road" when he said: "From any fruition of success, no matter what, shall come forth something to make a greater struggle necessary. \My call is the call of battle. I nourish active rebellion."
I'm recommending to those who abhor this Supreme Court ruling that they form a national daisy chain of Thomas Paine Bible Study groups and get them going after hours in their local public schools. Thomas Paine wrote Common Sense, the pamphlet that inspired the American Revolution. What few people know is that he also wrote The Age of Reason, a magnificent book that is highly critical of the Bible. Our school-age children ought to know about what Thomas Paine, our little-known Founding Father, thought and his Age of Reason makes an excellent study text to use in those after-hours Thomas Paine Bible Study groups. Ernest Barteldes: It is interesting that you mention psychologists. Recently, there was a study that came out that said that homosexuals could be "cured", which enraged most gays around the world, once the option of being gay has, for a long time, not been considered a "disease"? Jack Nichols: Its sad the media should be giving current space to a dumbo non-issue that was buried in the early 1970s by the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association. Before that time shrinks had said homosexuality was a pathology. Faced with convincing arguments that proved otherwise, they collectively changed their viewpoint. Now they say that these Ex-Gay groups can, in fact, cause naïve people to lose self-esteem and to develop mental problems. Dr. Robert Spitzer of Columbia University--who did that snake-oil study you mentioned--cozies up to religious fanatics. He's appearing on James Dobson's Christian Right radio program, Focus on the Family. No truly dispassionate scientist would accept speaking engagements from silly fanatics and zealots. A great portion of Spitzer's anti-gay study's subjects were just such religious enthusiasts. Would the mainstream press have allowed such a "scientist" to turn African-Americans into whites? Or to turn Jews into obedient fundamentalist Christians? Ernest Barteldes: You have written quite a number of books. Could you tell us a little about them? What are you working on now? When can we expect publication? Jack Nichols: In GayToday, the Internet news magazine I edit, I've been doing extensive coverage of the "Bush Stole the Election" movement: www.gaytoday.badpuppy.com/coup.htm I honestly believe that ordinary Americans, like ordinary Germans in the 1930s, have now become victims of a fascist coup. The Gang of Five on the U.S. Supreme Court and Mr. George W. Bush's brother Jeb, aided and abetted by Katherine Harris, conspired to turn over undeserved power to the GOP.
Ernest Barteldes: Many media personalities are publicly "out" these days. However, many, such as R.E.M's Michael Stripe are reluctant about talking about their sexuality, arguing, as Stripe did, that that is a "very private matter". What are your views on the matter? Jack Nichols: Mr. Stripe, if he's gay, and I know nothing about his life, is indeed welcome to keep his feelings to himself. If it turns out that someone sues him for palimony, or some such, I won't feel very sorry for him, however. I much prefer public people who see their sexuality as a positive expression as opposed to a matter they must hide. If Mr. Stripe turns out to be gay, he'll also turn out to be, in my opinion, a boring anti-sexual reactionary concerned with the profit-effects on his public image should he reveal his truest feelings. The truth doesn't seem to have hurt Elton John's pocketbook very much, or Mellisa Etheridge's, or K.D. Lang's. Ernest Barteldes: TV and movies have serious gay characters these days, differently from how it was 20 years ago. Some, however, argue that "We're not really seeing gay life". Do you agree? And why should TV be real, anyway? Jack Nichols: I have to laugh at anybody's use of the word "real." Drag stars I've known have used the word pejoratively or sarcastically, as when they'd critique someone by saying, "You are just so real." No matter whether one is gay or straight, whatever it is that constitutes a person's "reality" will be different, often markedly. The reason for this is simply that people vary. Every story, I should hope, will be unique. I, for one, certainly don't want to watch dramas about folks who are carbons of each other. Ernest Barteldes: The old "gay stereotype" is dead and gone on media and TV. How do you see the success of shows such as Queer as Folk and Will & Grace, and other gay characters in series such as Dawson's Creek? Jack Nichols: I've enjoyed Queer as Folk much more than I'd expected I would. I feel as if I've known every one of its very ordinary characters, not very intelligent bar flies, mind you, but at home in Pittsburgh, nevertheless. I know Will and Grace has been very popular, but its format is too much the conventional sitcom for my stringent tastes. I keep waiting for the canned laughter. I'm thankful that Dawson's Creek has treated a major network's audience to a passionate male/male kiss. I believe strongly in human see, human do. What really excites me are the top notch gay and lesbian films that are currently being made. Ernest Barteldes: We have never met, but we've been corresponding for almost two years. How has the experience of editing GayToday been?
Ernest Barteldes: You used to be a New Yorker and left... Jack Nichols: . I lived in the Big Apple between 1967 and 1978. Wonderful years. I was at ground zero in the hippie sexual revolution as the first managing editor of SCREW--while it was still an avant garde publication. I've always respected Manhattan because I appreciate its citizens' directness. Ernest Barteldes: What took you away ? Jack Nichols: Because two influences--my love, Lige Clarke and Walt Whitman's "Song of the Open Road" encouraged me to travel. My home-town was Washington, D.C. Today I like living on the ocean and swimming in my apartment's pool every morning. It keeps me full of energy. Since leaving New York, I've lived in Miami, Tampa, Atlanta, San Francisco, and Cocoa Beach. Ernest Barteldes: It's funny that you mention visiting New York then coming back to live. The same thing happened to me two years ago, when I visited New York and decided that this was the place I wanted to be. How did you feel leaving New York? Jack Nichols: I'd long before put Walt Whitman's "Song of the Open Road" to memory and so I felt at ease simply doing what that great poem had suggested. Whitman said: "You but arrive at the city to which you are destined-- you hardly settle yourself to satisfaction, before you are called by an irresistible call to depart. You shall betreated to the ironical smiles and mockings of those who remain behind you . What beckonings of love you receive, you shall only answer with passionate kisses of parting. You shall not allow the hold of those who spread their reached hands towards you. Ernest Barteldes: Was it a hard decision or did you feel that you had had enough of this city for a lifetime? Jack Nichols: Frankly, while I loved New York's opportunities and offerings in the arts, I began, after a decade, to long to spend time at locales where there was less cement and more nature. I longed to breathe fresh air. Ernest Barteldes: What took you to Florida?
Ernest Barteldes: Can you tell us a little of your days in New York? Where did you live then? Jack Nichols: The last Greenwich Village apartment I shared with both of my great loves in the 1970s was at 113 Washington Place. I also once lived in both the East Village (47-1/2 7th Street across from the Filmore East rock theatre at 7th and 2nd) and later on the upper East Side at 77th and 2nd. After first visiting, I'd originally arrived to live in 1967…just in time for the immortal Summer of Love. I worked for Underground Uplift Unlimited that year as its sales manager. I remember feeling proud of having placed that company's product, counterculture slogan buttons, in the window of the corner drug store on the northwest corner of 42nd Street and Broadway, probably the busiest corner in the nation. I remember those Beatles' tunes blaring out of every storefront on Times Square. "Fu*k Censorship," "Cunnilingus Spoken Here," "Lets Get Naked and Smoke," and "More Deviation, Less Population," were some of the old slogans I sold. In 1968, I got my first job editing six mass-circulation magazines at Countrywide Publications. That's where Al Goldstein was working while he was planning to publish SCREW and he asked me to be his new paper's first managing editor. In SCREW Lige and I wrote the first gay journalists' account of the Stonewall uprising. I made many wonderful friends in Manhattan. When I come to town today, I always visit Dr. George Weinberg, the heterosexual who coined the word 'homophobia' and Randolfe Wicker, the gay movement's original media whiz kid, currently the founder of the world's first pro-human cloning activist group and the long-ago owner of that slogan button business I promoted in 1967. Randy recommended me for my first editorial job too.
Ernest Barteldes: How do you see that spot today, so sterile with its Disney and Warner stores, a far cry from the unofficial red light district that was Times Square then? Jack Nichols: Truthfully, although I should hope every major city has a decent red light district, I was never particularly fond of the old Times Square. Not that I disapproved of its gaudiness or its X-rated nooks and crannies. Its just that after there was an influx of hard drugs-about 1971- it seemed less safe as a general cruising ground. Much earlier, I visited Times Square on New Year's Eve (1964-65) and was nearly trampled to death by the crazed crowds. My host, who stayed home, laughed when I returned, saying "Live a little, learn a little." If we're talking about cruising places where red lights no longer flash, I much more approved of Manhattan's gay steam baths, now closed, reportedly because of AIDS. The baths were often clean and sociable. Bette Midler, Cab Calloway, Barry Manilow, and other stars sang at the Continental Baths. After the AIDS crisis emerged, the lobbies of most baths were chock full of AIDS prevention literature and had bowls filled with condoms. Customers at the baths were being alerted to the dangers of AIDS and safe sex practices were touted. Minus the presence of mind-numbing alcohol, the baths were probably far less dangerous as sex venues than any singles bars. At the bars people are seldom alerted to AIDS. They drink and go home with each other. Condoms and safe sex are mostly ignored when alcohol affects one's judgment.
Jack Nichols: I live directly on the ocean and enjoy fresh air and the daily companionship of an extraordinarily beautiful friend. Old friends--from the early 1960s-- live nearby. I'm making a living by doing what I enjoy--editing a magazine reflecting some of what I've learned in life. This year I'm awaiting the publication of at least five more new history books that cover my life and the lives of my great loves, now deceased. The first history book this year, by Dr. James T. Sears, will be published in July by Rutgers University Press, titled Rebels, Rubyfruit and Rhinestones. In September, Columbia University Press will publish Voices of Revolution: The Dissident Press in America by Dr. Rodger Streitmatter, Professor of Journalism at American University. Its the first textbook chapter to include the gay press in such a general history and there's a great photo of Lige with me taken by Eric Stephen Jacobs in the good ol' days.
Later in the year Scarecrow Press will publish Leading the Parade by Paul D. Cain and Haworth Press will publish Risk Takers and Trend Setters, edited by the pioneering sexologist, Dr. Vern Bullough. Haworth, as I understand it, is also publishing some of my earliest speeches-particularly those wherein I've recommended Walt Whitman's philosophy as a cultural base for both gay and straight society. Glenn Holsten of WHYY in Philadelphia has made a documentary, Gay Pioneers. Its about our early pickets and I'm one of the talking heads in this film. I'm 63 now, and have seldom been happier or more relaxed.
Ernest Barteldes: How do you see homophobia today as the Bush era unveils? Do you think the gay lib victories of the past are somehow in jeopardy? Jack Nichols: Under George W. Bush, everything that I hold dear about America is in jeopardy. Ernest Barteldes: Many people have said that about Bush. Why do you see him as such a dangerous creature? Jack Nichols: Cockiness in cahoots with greed and abject ignorance is especially scary in a leader of the world's foremost techno-power. Bush is nine years younger than I am and looking at him across the years I see a smug, short-sighted and unconvincing leader-impersonator. He's far too stupid to be anything other than a stand-in for his dizzy dad's rich boyfriends, freaks who foul our good air, allowing themselves astronomical bonuses while they encourage both electric bills and pump prices to rise. In GAY, back in 1969, The Gay Witch, Dr. Leo Louis Martello, revealed to our readers what he called "the curse that never fails." That particular curse, which I have bellowed at Bush, is just starting to work these days. It needed only a short time to do so. What's the curse? It goes like this: "I wish you upon yourself!" Ernest Barteldes: How do you see gay activism today as compared to the early, historical days you participated in? Are you still involved with activism? Jack Nichols: The liberation work that needs doing today is every bit as important as the pioneering work we did in those early days. Thinkers and poets from a previous century, like Edward Carpenter and Walt Whitman, had inspired me back then. In the days of the 1960s counterculture revolution, Whitman was particularly apropos as I saw it. Today, I'd like to see a more widespread appreciation for Whitman's world-view. Oscar Wilde said of him, "If you don't read him for his poetry, read him for his philosophy because he is the precursor of a fresh new kind of person." Whitman says, "Mount the barricades, contend for your very lives!" This advice is still just as pertinent today--if not more so. We need people who will stand up fearlessly to the establishment's ninnies. Ernest Barteldes: I wandered into a bookstore in the East Village and stumbled into a history book titled Gay Metropolis, which richly quotes you and even includes a photo of a picket in which you participated. What can you tell us about that book? Jack Nichols: There's also a photo in it showing me with Lige Clarke. That history is the work of Charles Kaiser, a top notch journalist. Charles lives in Manhattan and he's either known or met many of the people he brings to life. He's also written another acclaimed history titled 1968 in America: Music, Politics, Chaos, Counterculture and the Shaping of a Generation and he's a former reporter for the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. Charles was the former media editor of Newsweek. Anybody wondering about the emergence of America's gay communities between 1940 and 1996 can't go wrong reading The Gay Metropolis. It is beautifully written, a very spirited book. Ernest Barteldes is an ESL, GED and Portuguese teacher. In addition to that, he is a freelance writer who has been contributing to the Greenwich Village Gazette since September 1999. His work has also been published by The Staten Island Advance, The Staten Island Register, The SI Muse, The Villager, Brazzil magazine, GLSSite and other publications. He lives on Staten Island, NY. He can be reached at ebarteldes@nycny.net Please send feedback to: ebarteldes@nycny.net http://www.bacchin.com.br/barteldes Visit Ernest's ESL Page: http://www.barteldes.freeyellow.comb |
Jack Nichols 
Activist Jack Nichols, 1962, was one of the pre-Stonewall gay pioneers 
Bob Kunst has worked with Jack Nichols for more than two decades to end gay discrimination and promote equality 
Jack Nichols and Lige Clarke 
Jack Nichols with Logan Carter 
Jack Nichols meets with old friend and human cloning rights activist Randolfe Wicker 
Ernest Barteldes: How is your life these days?
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